From: Steve Simpson [steve@thecubestudio.com]
Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 3:21 PM
To: Larry kenny
Subject: RE: Viper 95 solutions
1Z75X7F6DK90395707
UPS Standard
End of Day, Tues. 7 Jul. 2009
-----Original
Message-----
From: Larry kenny [mailto:larken@storm.ca]
Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 11:13 AM
To: Steve Simpson
Subject: Re: Viper 95 solutions
It would probably be best if you returned the drive and i will give you a full refund.
I've tried to help you but im not interested in being insulted or controlled.
Your answers are SMART ASS answers that don't give much info and its like a PISSING contest with you.
Yes i have tested the 't' command, and you could have just told me what bank you found it didn't save in.
So send it back with a tracking # and when i get it i will refund the total cost with shipping.
Larry K
----- Original Message -----
To: Larry kenny
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 6:16 PM
Subject: RE: Viper 95 solutions
Larry, you have a very sarcastic and condescending manner, and I am loosing patience with it, frankly.
You asked me to keep this thing and give it a fair chance, and I am spending (wasting maybe?) more time on it, but I'm not going to be insulted any further by flippant answers.
I told you I have read the manual, not that the manual is very helpful for the product that I actually have.
I surmised that it *should* save, what I asked was why it doesn't . . . in NON - Bank0 . . where AS I SAID . . it saves the other changes OK.
Did you even try this?
Thursday night has passed. and I have not seen the new manual.
- Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry kenny [mailto:larken@storm.ca]
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 10:54 AM
To: Steve Simpson
Subject: Re: Viper 95 solutions
I know it doen't save in Bank0 (only for testing, says it in the manual)
But it should save in banks 1,2 and 3
Larry
----- Original Message -----
To: Larry kenny
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2009 9:10 AM
Subject: RE: Viper 95 solutions
Viper will not save 't' value. Seems to save other changes OK.
Is this fixable?
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry kenny [mailto:larken@storm.ca]
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 9:30 AM
To: Steve Simpson
Subject: Re: Viper 95 solutions
Increase the P and D settings to stiffen motor.
keep D at 2 x what P is.
Already did all of this. Tried P from 100 to 1,000. At the higher
settings, the motor accellerates very roughly with a loud rattling sound.
And you increased the D as you increased the p also ? So increase P to 200 and D to 400. The motor should be stiffer. If you go too high the motor will start to make noises. Increasing the D higher to 3-4X P can make a sloopy system more stable.
(Set ' r ' to 500 and ' t ' to 1000 to keep them
from interfering with tuning.) There is no 't'
setting in the Viper command list (page 18) What is it for and what is the
range?
Steve, Im telling you about the other comands like t,f and 1,2 BECAUSE they are not in the manual yet.
Questions:
1) about 1/3 of the time after a power
down to clear a fault, upon restoring power, the drive is
unresponsive with the red LED on steady. What is causing this?
The steady red LED means under
voltage, which happens as the power supply is dicharging below 10 volts.
You need to discharge the PS to less than 2 volts before turning it back on so
the Proccessor can reset.
2) You indicated the drive can be
reset using the 5 pin connector, but you did not answer my question as to
how this is done.
It will be in the manual
Larry
----- Original Message -----
To: Larry kenny
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 1:40 AM
Subject: RE: Viper 95 solutions
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry kenny [mailto:larken@storm.ca]
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 7:13 PM
To: Steve Simpson
Subject: Re: Viper 95 solutions
>>The servo runs OK at low speeds already, but it takes quite a bit of movement before it reacts while it is 'holding'.
What are the PID settings? Are you running in a bank with a jumper ? You should be. (Bank0 is just for testing). Use bank 2
Increase the P and D settings to stiffen motor. keep D
at 2 x what P is.
[Steve Simpson]
Already did all of this. Tried P from 100 to 1,000. At the higher settings, the motor accellerates very roughly with a loud rattling sound.
Set ' r ' to 500 and ' t ' to 1000 to keep them
from interfering with tuning.
[Steve Simpson]
There is no 't' setting in the Viper command list (page 18) What is it for and what is the range?
What is the L setting ? It should be 3 or 4 for that size
motor.
[Steve Simpson]
Tried both, also others. set on 4
there are 2 parameter display commands '1' and '2' (other than ' ? ')
Press 2 <enter> to see Parameter_list 2
[Steve Simpson]
Also not documented in the manual that I can find.
The ' f ' setting is the Feedforward setting.
While the motor is running, press 'e' to get the error.
Increase the 'f' setting until the error is reduced.
[Steve Simpson]
There is no 'f' setting in the Viper command list. What is it for and what is the range?
Only set the F command after the PID and L are set.
Press 's' to save parameters (while the motor is stopped)
[Steve Simpson]
Already did this.
Larry
----- Original Message -----
To: Larry kenny
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 5:51 PM
Subject: RE: Viper 95 solutions
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry kenny [mailto:larken@storm.ca]
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 3:25 PM
To: Steve Simpson
Subject: Re: Viper 95 solutions
There is no +5V on those unused encoder pins. This didn't
harm your encoder. They are just the _a and _b inputs if you
have a differential encoder, thats all.
[Steve Simpson]
You are mistaken. I measure 5V on both pins with a voltmeter.
No (im not) , its just pulled to+5 with a
2K resistor. It can damage nothing
[Steve
Simpson]
First you state that "There is no +5V on those unused encoder pins"
Then you say in effect, well, OK it IS there, but it can't hurt anything.
Perhaps you could stand in my shoes long enough to imagine how that sounds.
Was the motor holding with the 300 line encoder ?
[Steve Simpson]
I suppose that would depend on the definition of 'holding'.
It was not actively holding, as in 'singing' or bouncing back and forth between encoder lines like the Gecko.
The Viper doesn't sing, it should hold silently.
It seems like the Viper was inactive until something tried to move the motor, then it would react to resist. It that how it is designed to work?
Yes.
Ok, so you had it holding with the 300 line encoder, good. Now the drive needs to be tuned.
Until the drive is tuned, it will fault when run fast since the following error will exceed the set limits,
So the first process is to tune it at low speeds. Wonce its tuned at low speeds you increase the speed, and set the feedforward command
This will be explained in the new manual.
The servo runs OK at low speeds already, but it takes quite a bit of movement before it reacts while it is 'holding'.
There is no mention of a 'feedforward' command in the manual that I have.
On the topic of the manual, you might also consider orienting the jumpers on page 20. I had to figure out top from bottom by experimenting.
Larry
----- Original Message -----
To: Larry kenny
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 3:35 PM
Subject: RE: Viper 95 solutions
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry kenny [mailto:larken@storm.ca]
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 2:07 PM
To: Steve Simpson
Subject: Re: Viper 95 solutions
Steve,
Yes the new manual will have the a whole lot more info on the encoder testing. I will send it directly to you.
There is no +5V on those unused encoder pins. This didn't
harm your encoder. They are just the _a and _b inputs if you
have a differential encoder, thats all.
[Steve Simpson]
You are mistaken.
I measure 5V on both pins with a voltmeter.
Was the motor holding with the 300 line encoder ?
[Steve Simpson]
I suppose that would depend on the definition of 'holding'.
It was not actively holding, as in 'singing' or bouncing back and forth between encoder lines like the Gecko.
It seems like the Viper was inactive until something tried to move the motor, then it would react to resist. It that how it is designed to work?
Larry
----- Original Message -----
To: Larry kenny
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 2:37 PM
Subject: RE: Viper 95 solutions
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry kenny [mailto:larken@storm.ca]
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 10:48 AM
To: Steve Simpson
Subject: Viper 95 solutions
Steve,
I will have the new updated manual done by tomorrow night.
Why don't you wait and try it again.
The viper will do exactly like you need it to do for your spindle 4th axis application.
When the drive is properly setup, the fault will only
happen very rarly and There is a way to reset the drive from the
5 pin connector without turning the power off.
[Steve Simpson]
What is this method? Will it be included in the new manual?
But the viper has 2 soft warning settings that warn you before tripping .
Send me a diagram of how you had the encoder connected. Was
it a single ended or differential ? If its a single ended, then you need to add
(2) 2K resistors (I've added this to the latsest manual)
[Steve Simpson]
Both of the encoders I used are single ended and there was nothing in the manual about needing 2k resistors that I can recall. The little 300 line encoder is working on the Viper.
Since I still have eveything set up, I would be willing to try the 2k resistors on the 1800 line E6 encoder and see if that makes any difference, but US digital said that putting 5V on the channels 'most likely' ruined the module.
I don't have time to draw diagrams , but the encoder has only 4 wires (not counting the index which I don't use).
+5v and ground and the 'A' and 'B'
channels. +5 and ground are self explanitory and were not hooked up backwards.
I initially had the A and B channels
connected to the pins in your diagram with the SOLID wires, insted of the
correct dashed wires. This was the incorrect assumption.
Like i said, don't worry about a refund, my word is good. If after 3 months you are not happy i will still give you full money back and shipping.
Call me at 613 746 5685 if you need any help
Larry kenny
----- Original Message -----
To: Larry kenny
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 9:20 AM
Subject: RE: Viper 95
Larry, as I mentioned, I am an engineer with many years of experience and while I am not an expert on servo drives (or electronics in general), I do my homework.
I read every word of your manual before I ever bought the drive. The manual you have available under Viper 75 is actually the 100/200 manual and states that resetting the drive is a matter of cycling a 12v pin. Not having the Viper 75/95 in my hand and not taking the time to meticulously compare the photos, I had no reason to believe there were such fundamental differences.
I've already explained the encoder issue. Your schematic says simply 'use only one connection' it does NOT specify which connection. I made the wrong assumption that the dashes lines were the extra wires for a differential encoder. I should have included this among the other question I asked to get the thing hooked up, but it just didn't occur to me that the dashed wires where what I should use. I showed the schematic to others and asked which wires they would have used and both said the solid colored wires. I am using the wire supplied by US Digital and it is not twisted pair, so there is no correlation there. This is an unwinable argument, but I have to ask how difficult would it be for you to identify in the manual which pins to use for which encoder type?
I did make an incorrect assumption, Larry, and in your turn, you also make a lot of incorrect assumptions. I did use the 'm' command. Many, many, many times. That's what led me to conclude the encoder was toasted by applying 5v to the channels, which US Digital confirmed. While I cannot decipher the numbers returned from the 'm' commend, the encoder should certainly read the same in a 90 degree sweep no matter if is it turned very slowly or somewhat quickly (by hand). The encoder showed a difference of say hex 10 with a slow sweep and hex 1 or 2 with a faster sweep.
It also would read incrementally back wards occasionally with small movement in the same direction. 07, 9, 0A, 07, 10, 12 etc. I did not reverse the polarity on the encoder, and the encoder was working fine with the previous Gecko drive.
If you read my question to US Digital, you would see that I went on to use a 300 line encoder with the Viper and that worked fine. That is how I continued to evaluate the Viper and discovered the reset problem.
I'm not trying to be a PIA or slam your product. In fact, there is a very active 'hot' thread running in the Mach3 forum on my 4th axis project, and I'm not of a mind to attack the viper there either. I just want a product that performs in my application and even if I could eventually dial in the PID and L to get the performance I want, there may still be an occasional fault and resetting by taking down the whole power supply, which also runs 3 steppers, is not a viable option since the machine would have to be re-zeroed after every Viper fault and that's just not acceptable considering it may not even be possible once the fixtures are in place.
I have no idea how complicated it would be to have a reset pin or a reset command, but the absence of same is a deal breaker for me.
I've already spent way too much time on the Viper with a negative result and I don't plan to add to that by debating with you further in a 'who shot John' argument. I have no ill will toward you over this. You can use the info to improve you product and your manual, or you can write me off as a 'problem customer' (yes we all have those). That's your choice.
I'll return the drive, connectors and rs232 cable, and you can refund via paypal whatever you think appropriate.
Thanks you for your prompt responses,
- Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry kenny [mailto:larken@storm.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 6:30 PM
To: Steve Simpson
Subject: Re: Viper 95
Steve,
Why do you think your encoder is destroyed ? Did you hook the +V and Gnd up backwards ? Thats the only thing that would blow the encoder .
On page 9 in the manual, it clearly shows the
connections to the encoder. What did i miss saying ??
(The colors are for twisted pair network cable)
It seems you never had the encoder connected properly if the Viper doesn't hold.
Thats also why it runs away and faults, because it sees the encoder isn't working !
It says in the manual on page 11 it tells you to use the 'm' command to test the encoder reading. You didn't do this.
I have no problem refunding (all) your money. I
will extend the money back warantee to 90 days.
Please slow down and read the manual. get the drive working
before giving up.
Give me your phone# and i will call you tomorrow.
Larry K
----- Original Message -----
To: Larry kenny
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 6:44 PM
Subject: RE: Viper 95
Larry,
Apparently, I have destroyed the module in my new encoder by choosing the wrong set of wires from your wiring diagram, which are not labeled un your manual. I guessed wrong that the dashed lines were the extra lines for a differential encoder. Seemed logical to me.
I have played for hours with the PID and L parameters per your manual and while it is STILL is does not HOLD. I showed you initally that I am using the servo for an indexer and it needs to hold fast in order to machine parts being held. Viper does not seem to react until the motor is moved and by them it is too late.
I also explaned that the faulting of the Gecko made it unuseable and in spite of its larger error tokkerane, the Viper faults just as easily as the Gecko did with the added inconvienience of having to powe down the entire power supply to all af the motors, which would require re-zeroing the machine after every Viper fault . . which are many. This is not an acceptable solution at all.
So the poor documentation (in my opinion) has cost me an encoder module and the Viper is not suitable for the purpose I explained it would be used for.
My last question is whether I can return this product for a refund. Your web site states a 60 day guarentee, but does not say if that is money back or not.
- Steve
.
Steve,
In answer to your questions (see Below)
Dirk Restvedt
dirk.r@usdigital.com
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From: Steve Simpson [mailto:steve@thecubestudio.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 9:20 AM
To: Support
Subject: E6 1800 line wired wrong - did I kill it?
I was replacing a servo drive with a different model and wired the encoder (non differential) so that A and B were wired to 5V.
The encoder still reads, but at something like 1/100th of the counts that it should. and f it runs fast at all it barely changes the count.
I did not get the encoder working with the new drive at all so I don't know if there is a compatibility issue with the new drive or if I damaged the encoder module.
Currently I am running a 300 line US digital mini encoder and it seems to be working OK.
SO two questions:
1) Did I damge the module by putting 5v to the A and B wires. Most likely
2) If so, is that repairable or should I
buy another module? Module is not Repairable but
you can replace just the module without replacing the whole encoder.
Click here and see the part number you will need to replace
(EM1-2-1800) http://www.usdigital.com/products/encoders/incremental/modules/em1/
Thanks
- Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry kenny [mailto:larken@storm.ca]
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 12:17 PM
To: Steve Simpson
Subject: Re: Viper 95
Hi
The drives PID and L parameters need to be tuned. It will hold perfectly still and smooth when tuned.
In bank 2, (second jumper) it has most of the settings set for the motor you have.
It will take a bit of time to get use to the drive, but they are rock stead when tuned.
Yes its compatible to that encoder
Yes you have to powerdown the drive to reset it. Put a discharge load resistor on the PS to make it discharge faster when you turn it off.
Larry
----- Original Message -----
To: Larry kenny
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2009 12:26 PM
Subject: RE: Viper 95
Is there any way to reset the Viper once it has entered an error state with the LED flashing rapidly? I mean besides powering it off completely?
The Viper does not old steady. I may need to fiddle with the settings more, but so far it refuses to lock the motor at a stop. Will I be able to get it to hold tight? I am using the servo motor on an indexer and it needs to hold fast.
Do you know if the Viper is compatible with the US Digital E6 series of encoders (1,800 line in my case)
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry kenny [mailto:larken@storm.ca]
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 5:37 PM
To: Steve Simpson
Subject: Re: Viper 95
1) Polarity of 'power in' is not labled on
the PC board. Is it the same as the larger Vipers? i.e. Positive toward the
fuse?
Yes, same as the V200, Pos towards the Fuse.
2) Manual shows a 12V 'control' conection
but my Viper has no such connection. Does it make it's own 12V or not use
12V? Do I need to hook anything up?
The maual is for the Viper 200 at this time. Im almost done the update for the V95.
They are very similar, but the V95 only has 1 power supply input (there is no 12V input) Programing is the same.
Continuous current: 8.5A , Give it more than this for 1 minuite and you will fry the motor. Thats why you set the fuse to this value . The viper has current control that warns or tripps after 2 seconds. Be sure to adjust the trim pot to save the motor.
35 amp Peak current is normal. The V95 can output 30 amps peak as well.
Larry
----- Original Message -----
To: Larry kenny
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 5:56 PM
Subject: RE: Viper 95
Thanks for the quick answers, Larry.
I have the drive mounted in an aluminum box now and am getting ready to fire it up.
If I am reading this correctly, the motor draw 38
amps max. Here are the specs:
· skewed rotor design
· continuous torque: 170 oz/in
· peak torque: 850 oz/in
· terminal voltage: 72 VDC
· continuous current: 8.5A
· peak current: 38A
· inertia: 3.39 kg.cm^
· maximum operating speed: 4200 rpm
· torque constant (KT): .1757 N. m/am
· voltage constant (KE): 15.71 volts/100
rpm
· resistance: 85 ohm
· inductance: 2.35 mH
· weight: 8.8 lbs
· 7 inches
The manual I can find on your site is for the larger Vipers and the picture does not exactly match what I have.
Just two concerns.
1) Polarity of 'power in' is not labled on the PC board. Is it the same as the larger Vipers? i.e. Positive toward the fuse?
2) Manual shows a 12V 'control' conection but my Viper has no such connection. Does it make it's own 12V or not use 12V? Do I need to hook anything up?
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry kenny [mailto:larken@storm.ca]
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 12:54 PM
To: Steve Simpson
Subject: Re: Viper 95
Yes, it has the big mosfets. Its the same PCB, just some different parts.
As for the fuse , what is the max stall current of the motor ? I think its about 7 amps for the motor you have. Reduce the fuse to a 7.5 amp.
The size of the fuse is matched to the motor, not the drive.
Larry
----- Original Message -----
To: Larry kenny
Sent: Monday, June 22, 2009 1:23 PM
Subject: RE: Viper 95
Larry,
I received the Viper Drive today, thanks!
The PC board says Viper 75 and it has a 10 amp fuse on it.
Is this a Viper 95?
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry kenny [mailto:larken@storm.ca]
Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 7:57 AM
To: Steve Simpson
Subject: Re: Viper 95
You sent the connectors and RS232 cable as well, correct?
Yes
----- Original Message -----
To: Larry kenny
Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2009 5:10 AM
Subject: RE: Viper 95
THX Larry, looking forward to trying it out.
You sent the connectors and RS232 cable as well, correct?
- Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry kenny [mailto:larken@storm.ca]
Sent: Wednesday, June 17, 2009 4:10 PM
To: Steve Simpson
Subject: Viper 95
Hi
Your drive was mailed today. You should have it mid next week.
Larry K
----- Original Message -----
To: Larry kenny
Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 12:25 PM
Subject: RE: Question on Viper
Thanks for the response Larry.
Sounds like the Viper will do the trick.
I am running this NEMA34 motor on 72V. Let me know if the Viper can handle this OK.
http://www.homeshopcnc.com/servo2.html
Consider this e-mail an order for the Viper95, the connector set and free RS232 cable
Please let me know availability and total cost with shipping, and your paypal account for payment.
Stephen Simpson
XXXXXXXXXX
Plano, TX 75023
XXXXXXXXXXX
(residential - OK to leave without signature)
This is what I am working on:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KNit__LJE4
I spoke to Gecko Tech support before I bought the 1800 line encoder and the Gecko 340. I told them exactly what I wanted to do. They assured me that the Gecko 340 would NOT limit the motor speed. Well . . . .
It was an ill wind actually, becuase it led me to research alternatives and I found the Viper . . which has a LOT of features that I want. With a fixed 147 step fault and an 1800 line encoder, there is virtually no room to accomodate a harmless error when turning down stock.
The 4th axis shown in the video is runing stricly as the A axis with all rotations pre calculated. I have since learned how to use a 'Swapaxis' function within a VB macro which switches the A axis and the spindle on the fly. I now have a photointerruptor on the indexer and I can also re-home after switching it back to being the A axis again.
So, I want the high res encoder so that the azimuth will be held as precisely and tighly as possible and I want the speed when I am using the 4th axis in . . well, let's call it 'lathe mode' . .LOL!!
I'm an engineer and I love to tinker. This thing is just too friggin' fun to play with. My 'mini machining center'.
- Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: Larry kenny [mailto:larken@storm.ca]
Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 10:25 AM
To: Steve Simpson
Subject: Re: Question on Viper
Hi
The drive can handle 625Khz encoder freq input.
It can handle about 100Khz step freq, but with a step multiplier (which should always be used) there would be no problem for speed.
I'm suprised your running a 1800 line on the G340. Most people have trouble with anything higher than a 500 line encoder.
Why do you need the motor to run so fast with a high res encoder ?
Larry K
----- Original Message -----
To: larken@storm.ca
Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 11:16 AM
Subject: Question on Viper
A spec that I cannot find on the Viper drive is the maximum quadrature count the drive can handle.
I am using a Gecko340 with an 1800 line encoder and the 250khz max of the Gecko is limiting my speed to a little over 2,000 RPM
What is the max speed I can get with the Viper, or what is the max encoder count the Viper can receive?
Thanks.
- Steve